Transactional vs. Relationship Business Development

Erica Lappo: I remember having one call where I asked a question that I was like, so Are you ready to sign? And my boss being like, we'll set up a meeting with a consultant so you can meet them. And so that was probably one of my mistakes in the beginning. We've all, I think coming from sales into business development, we've all had that.

Neil Barrow: Hi, welcome to the I Hope This Email Finds You Well business development podcast with Neil Barrow. Today we are joined by Erica Lappo, the Director of Business Development for Barnes & Thornburg. Welcome.

Erica Lappo: Thank you, Neil. Thanks for having.

Neil Barrow: Me, absolutely. So we're going to talk about business development today and you're a great one to talk through. I can't wait to get into how you've developed a great business development process structure, how you approach business development. But before we kind of get into all the good stuff, I want to talk about your journey.

So business development is a winding road to get here. We all have various backgrounds. We actually share one which I'm really excited to talk about. So tell me a little bit about how you got started on your business development journey or path.

Erica Lappo: Sure. So I would say it started more in the sales side of things. One of my college roommate actually worked for a payroll company called Paychex. And so she talked me into coming to interview, got the job, loved it.

And I think that's the one that we share, our experience that we share. It was just a great culture, taught me a lot about sales, taught me a lot about the grind of sales. And that's, yeah, that's where I started.

Neil Barrow: As it will. So yeah, we share that. So I was at ADP and so the enemy, well, we exactly paid the Big Blue and big red against each other. But for me, I remember it being such great sales training and it like I was still young and naive enough to just like, Oh yeah, tell me what to do.

And so I was doing all of these outreaches and outbound and all the stuff when email was super effective still when phone people would pick up the phone at the office when you could drop in and see people. A lot of challenges have changed today, but I still remember all of the, the hustle and the motor that you needed to be effective. And so my metrics were 75, 5 and 2. OK?

So 75 new face to face conversations or on the phone conversations, 5 new decision maker conversations and two close deals a week. OK, that was similar. Very.

Erica Lappo: Similar, I feel like the number 7 sticks out for in person meetings.

Neil Barrow: Each week. OK, wow, so.

Erica Lappo: Yeah, a little bit more, but you know, I'm sure we I hit that probably half the time. But we tried to get close. It was very high energy, high activity.

Neil Barrow: High activity and that's and I think that's fueled a lot of maybe our success has been that high activity. And so tell me a little bit about what you learned through there that's helped you. Like, is there anything that stands out during your time at Paychex, what you learned either good or bad, Yeah, that you wanted to kind of that you took with you as you know as you continue your career.

Erica Lappo: Yeah, I would say probably the number one good thing is just volume of activity and I take that forward all the way to today. And I think one of the funny it's it you're just it takes away any of the fear of hearing a no, like you kind of it's a bad of honor. One to a lot of what we did was just walk into buildings and just go door to door like a high rise go door to door and it was a badge of honor to get kicked out of the building the best time. And you're like, I did it.

I got kicked out of my first building when you call your boss. So you know, it's just a lot of hassle. Like literally you start your day and you're like, I'm just going to go to the six buildings and knock on doors and hopefully it's good to have a conversation with the decision maker. And then in December, I think because January was like our big month, it's like you're like, here's 50% discounts.

So that's probably one of the bad things that I learned is that in.

Neil Barrow: Transaction. More of a transaction.

Erica Lappo: Very transactional it's not as much on the relationship at all. It's more about let's just meet as many people as we can and in January let's get them all to start your one. It can be a 50% discount just to get them on and then from there on it'll.

Neil Barrow: Yeah. And you highlight the, those two things, which is volume. Like it taught us to have a high motor, high activity. If I, if I'm not doing things and meeting with people to generate conversations, then I'm not doing my job.

I've got to go do those things. And so I still feel a lot of anxiety today if I'm not generating conversations, if I don't have meetings on the calendar. If I have a day where and we're in business development, so days blow up all the time, especially in our industry where people have to travel at a drop of a hat, days blow up all the time. But if I'm in my office all day long, I'm like, uh oh, I failed today.

Like what did I do wrong? So yeah, I think the IT ingrained in me early that we need a high level of meetings and activity.

Erica Lappo: Yes. And so when you're looking at BD people that are listening right now, like one of the number one things when I look for hiring or were looking at evaluating business development professionals, like the number one thing is high motor like bias towards action like that's it.

Neil Barrow: Absolutely. And then when you're taking that transactional approach, right. But that also opened us up to a lot of conversations with a lot of business owners, a lot of decision makers. And so we got a lot better, a lot faster at being able to have effective conversations with those folks.

Erica Lappo: Absolutely. You would know immediately what the first objection was going to be and how to overcome that objection. So you know.

Neil Barrow: Can I stop you there? So when you're thinking about overcoming objections, is that still a thing today? Like do we have to overcome like today when you go into a conversation, are you thinking about how do I overcome an objection? Are you thinking about it differently today?

Erica Lappo: I think I'm thinking about it differently today. All of my meetings today, I really just want to hear their story. I want to hear their pain points. I want to know everything that they're that's keeping them up at night and whether it's my service or if it's one of my friends in the industry that I can connect them with.

That's what I'm focused on is how to solve their problems. Not so much like I have the service that I want to sell you, how am I going to get you to buy it?

Neil Barrow: And I think you're highlighting one of the main differences between the transactional versus the relationship and the true partnership, which is what BD is when you're in sales. I need deals, yes. And so I need to give discounts. I need to move you forward.

I need to overcome objections. But when I'm in business development, it's about a long term relationships and partnerships.

Erica Lappo: Yes. And I think as you move up in sales, like as you get to the enterprise level, it becomes more of that. But at the volume base 75, 5 and 2, you can't afford to be the relationship problem solver partner. No, you've got to get the deals.

Neil Barrow: You've got to get the deal and it's a monthly quota. And if you don't get that quota, what have? You done for me lately. Always.

Absolutely. So you were at Paychex and then where did where did you hit? What was your next stop?

Erica Lappo: So to touch on what you just talked about, it's small market. You're selling to one business owner that wears all the hats. I wanted more experience selling to more of a team and learning a full sales process. So I went from there to major market payroll sales at Paycor and learned a lot about, you know, a longer sales cycle and building the relationship more versus an immediate sale.

Although it still had very strict quotas that you had to hit monthly. It was a little bit longer of a sales process and you were selling to a whole C-Suite versus just one individual.

Neil Barrow: So you moved up market, correct. And So what were the sizes of these companies that you were talking to?

Erica Lappo: It was more employee count than it is revenue or EBITDA focused, which I am now, but I would say 100 employees plus. OK, 100 plus employees. Yeah.

Neil Barrow: So you at that point you've got executives and leadership teams and it's a little bit more of a complex, more of a complex cell typically. OK. So what were some of the things that you learned through that? Like specifically did you have any big wins at Paychex or Paycor like that you can point to like that stand out to you through the time and payroll?

Erica Lappo: Yeah, I'm. One of them was a lighting company and it was pretty close to when I first started and you know, I just really hit it off with the HR gal and built that relationship over a couple of months and was able to win their business. It was a combination of great timing and building the relationship. Another one lesson that I learned from there was a loss at Paycor.

So it was a very long sales cycle with a college or university here in town that I mean, we met with them for months and months. And I think we really thought I brought in another teammate because I wanted to make sure that we were, you know, using the best that we could put our best foot forward on this deal. And we thought it was in the bag and then got the call that they went with ADP that was.

Neil Barrow: Probably mine it was.

Erica Lappo: Probably yours. You probably stole it from me. And it was. It was hard because you'd worked so hard for it, but then you built the relationship and I stayed in touch with him and you know, it's still a contact I have today.

They never bought payroll from me. That would have been a cool, complete circle, but it's still a relationship that I have today that I call on and check on too. So eventually, maybe one day, we'll do something together.

Neil Barrow: So why do you think you lost?

Erica Lappo: It's been a while, but it's more transactional. I think it's more transactional, some pricing. Yeah. And so and at that.0 wait, maybe it was I think it was ADP the major market team at ADP, we love the.

Discount it's more. On price at that point and on my HCM payroll friends, I mean I don't think that's what everybody is selling on, but once in a while that's what it comes down to so.

Neil Barrow: Absolutely no. When you're in sales, you do whatever you can to try to make it work. Yes, ultimately. And so you try to put your best deal in yes.

And that's ultimately what it is. Absolutely. So OK, spent your time in payroll, you were out there hustling high motor, high activities, 75, 5 and 2 like you're rocking and rolling. What came next for you?

Erica Lappo: I was lucky enough to be recruited out by a consulting firm that I think is where I learned the majority of what I know today for business development, Bridgepoint Consulting, my leaders there taught me pretty much everything I know today. So that's really. Cool.

Neil Barrow: And So what was the difference between moving from like a very high activity, high pace, like management oriented? You probably had sales meetings on Mondays and recaps on Fridays and you calling your manager, they're calling you, where are these deals at? So you go from this really high energy activity, the environment, into a consulting firm in a business development role. What was the major changes for you for that?

Erica Lappo: The quotas disappeared and it went from well, not disappeared. It went from having monthly quotas and these, it went from having monthly quotas to it being more of like an annual quota thing. And they were very activity driven. If you're doing the right activities, then it'll come.

And so it wasn't. It took away the pressure of getting the sales numbers and put on the ability to just build the relationship versus shoving your service down someone's throat. Absolutely. Not a very eloquent way to put that, but it was very much more building, the relationship focused, and it was also a lot more collaborative.

My leaders in my market, it was, we were talking every day, but it was because it was like, hey, I had this meeting. This is what this person said. What should I say or who else should I talk to in this space? And it was much more of a team environment versus I'm the boss.

Did you get your 7 meetings this week? It was. Hey, who else should we know in this, in this circle? What other events have you heard of that we should all go to together?

Neil Barrow: Yeah. And so you've highlighted, you know, one of the big ones and when you ship from sales to, you know, business development role is quota does kind of disappear a little bit. But the activity perspective is like we have to get into this mindset of inputs, right? Like how do we help our people do better inputs on business development rather than like looking at what the output is because that's a challenge.

And I'm sure we'll kind of get into why that is. But you also said something really interesting, which is you were collaborative with the leaders in the market, but they're also the ones that are project managing and doing the work. They're on the delivery side, but they're also doing business development and they're collaborating with you. So how did y'all work together?

Because y'all are all doing business development. Yes, right.

Erica Lappo: Yes. So when I first started, it was very seamless. It was, I mean, I did not have a finance and accounting background and I moved into.

Neil Barrow: Did that affect how you were perceived or that did you have any challenges with not having a background in that the?

Erica Lappo: At the beginning, the first challenge was just knowing the lingo. And so they would go on every meeting with me first. I would just trail. I went on every meeting with them and learned and just sat and listened and took notes and circled words I didn't know like QoE, like what does this mean?

And valuation and all of these different words that I wasn't familiar with because I wasn't in the space. And they would after each meeting, I'd be OK, here's the 10 words I circled. Can you please talk this through with me? And they would, they were great and took the time to have those conversations with me.

And then it went to me setting the meetings, them following me and letting me lead them. And then at the end I would be like, how did I do? What other questions should I have asked? What did I not ask or what I what did I ask that I shouldn't have asked because one, it didn't matter or two, I sounded like I was being a pushy salesperson.

So a lot of it was just the feedback in the beginning from my directors and they were very like, it's a team. If what's the saying with the ships rising? So I don't know, I can't remember the saying is, but anyways, if we all work together, everybody's going to do both.

Neil Barrow: Rising tide? Lifts all boats there we.

Erica Lappo: Go. That's the one. And so yeah, it was great. We all hit the market together and there was no issues so.

Neil Barrow: Do you remember any interesting feedback that you got from them early on like from you said pushy salesperson, you said like was anything lingering from like your time in payroll, like how to run a meeting with an executive that maybe was feedback I think. I remember having one call where I asked a question that I was like, so Are you ready to sign now? Like, because you know, at payroll it was like you get the signature the first meeting, the one call close that does not exist really in business development. Every once in a while you get one that's like, hey, you know, I got referred to you by a really trusted advisor.

You're you're my person. Yeah. But I remember being like, so Are you ready to sign? And my boss being like, we'll set up a meeting with a consultant so you can meet them.

And so that was probably one of my mistakes in the beginning. We've all I.

Erica Lappo: Think coming from sales into business development, we've all had that moment for sure. We're like, hey, this sounds great. Are you ready to move forward? Yeah, but I think.

Another thing that I learned from sales versus business development is the ability to ask the hard questions, which I don't really feel are hard, which are around budget and decision making process. I think that being able to ask those questions, I mean, they're thinking about that, right? And so being able to be transparent and say, OK, is this in your budget? Is this and this, these are things too, that I learned at Bridgepoint.

But is this within your budget for this year or is this something you're thinking about for next year? Being able to ask those questions without that weird, Oh, am I allowed to talk about this? Yeah. And I think.

Neil Barrow: You know, you highlight the specific thing which is around like BANT, right, like budget authority, need timeline, that old sales stuff, right, that is still relevant today. But the way that you approach it is different in those environments. And so early on, I know that I was hesitant to ask for that because I wanted yeses, yes and I felt good about getting yeses instead of the actual answers yes, right. And so I think as we mature in those conversations and especially in business development, I think like we have to be more sensitive to because there are longer sales cycles, there are more relationship driven.

And so how do we, when we're getting in early with someone, how do we figure all that stuff out so we can be most helpful? Yeah.

Erica Lappo: Ultimately, yeah, it's all. Again, it's all about being infinitely curious. Another Bridgepoint thing is just asking all the questions and knowing what they're thinking about. I mean, yeah.

Neil Barrow: So, OK, you were, you were at the consulting firm for a while. Had you know, that's when I think we met was right when you started at Bridgepoint, right at the beginning. Yeah, which was seven years ago now. So years ago.

OK, well, they're showing our age. We're getting old and. So. But then, but then I know that you had really great success there and really enjoyed seeing you kind of in the market, like in the relationships that I had developed in business development, 'cause I started in business development a little bit before you did right with.

Erica Lappo: Oh yeah, everybody. Was like, you have to know Neil Barrow. I was like, OK, let's do it. Oh yeah, that wasn't impressive at all.

Neil Barrow: No, it was. And then so we met and we start talking and I was really impressed with like the way that you wove your web and went about your business because you could tell like you had a really high motor for activity and going to meet people. And then I think as we had continued to meet and catch up, like now you were naming people that I didn't know. So you were like then leaping me and my network because you were just having that high motor and so there's got to be some deals like over your career and on the consulting side before you moved on like is any of them stand out to you?

Erica Lappo: Yes, So 2. Of them, one of which was referred to me by a CPA friend, a BD at a CPA firm. So you're old, another BD, another BD, another BD at a CPA firm. We had just spent, you know, months meeting over the course of three years talking about different projects that we were each working on, different clients that we're bringing on, different aspects that our team could help with.

And one of which at Bridgepoint was SEC readiness and public company readiness. And he had a client that had come to him that wanted to go public and so he made the introduction, which was really cool. And so I brought in the correct team over the course of, I think, 3 months.

Neil Barrow: So how did you decide? Which team to bring in, I know that's that's part of our job is to like matchmaking. Right A.

Erica Lappo: Little bit, that's a great point. So at Bridgepoint there were three different, you know, main areas of focus, technology, finance and accounting and then the SEC/IPO readiness team. And so that was the correct team to bring in this account in this case. And so I brought in that team along with one of my directors in the market and we started having conversations with this company.

I think it took about 3 months of several meetings before they were ready to move forward with us.

Neil Barrow: OK, that's. Really cool and it ended up.

Erica Lappo: Being for us over $1,000,000 of revenue.

Neil Barrow: Wow, yeah, in a year. So that's a pretty big deal for that's a really. Big deal. Yeah, that's awesome.

Good for y'all. And that's like I think that shows and highlights the power of consistency with the right people, yes, that can refer yes, the right clients and you were right place, right time and then y'all. And then obviously a credit to you and team is you all put together the right team, yes. And I'm sure within your time it's again about the problems that you're dealing with, about the things that we're doing, not necessarily all about.

US.

Erica Lappo: Oh, absolutely. Not my job was done after the referral partner brought me into the deal. I mean, I, I facilitated the rest of the deal, making sure that it was moving smoothly, but the team, the team was doing it. The most important part of that, making sure you have the right people that you're bringing into the yes, you got to.

Neil Barrow: Have people that can actually do a good job once you get in the room.

Erica Lappo: Exactly. And that's a.

Neil Barrow: Big key for being successful in business development. Absolutely. So you said you had. Another one what's Yes, so.

Erica Lappo: The other one. So there's networking groups in town, Sure. And one of them I was a part of called Women's Finance Exchange, had made some friends. I was on the board of it and one of my friends worked for a CPA firm here in town and moved from that CPA firm to a private equity firm in Chicago.

She's still a friend today. And so when she made the move actually for the CPA firm, we've done a couple of small projects. And when she made the move to the private equity firm, she brought us in and we ended up doing several deals with them and that ended up being probably over $1,000,000 of revenue as well. It's been a couple of, well, it's been a couple of years now, so I don't remember the exact amount, but that relationship was great.

Every time, if there was any kind of small issue, she would pick up the phone and call me. I would work with my team to resolve it. If they knew there was something coming down the pipe that they were potentially going to need one of our consultants for, I would make sure that we had a good one reserved for them. Not they were all great, but you know, we had one that we knew that would be perfect on this project and.

Neil Barrow: So I think you highlight another big piece as well, which is like we are the internal and external community like liaison, right? And so I tell, I would tell all of my clients, I'm going to get you with the right team and you're going to be great. But if anything comes up, like if they're not responding timely, I'm I'm you call. Me you call.

Me. Yeah, you text me, I'll get it resolved. Yes, like I'm on your team, right. And so I think there's that level of service that we also offer to make sure that they're as comfortable and happy because delivery teams get busy, like they have capacity challenges.

They're not trained to be great communicators or leaders or project manager or whatever, right? And so we have to step in as that role. And so I think you highlighted like those are two really cool stories. And also like really big wins.

Yeah, that frankly, a lot of business development people probably don't have, right. And so that's like really cool that you were able to do that. Yeah. And so.

Go ahead.

Erica Lappo: I was going to say another thing to point out to where the internal communication or where the communication between the client and our teams. But yes, we're looking out for the clients interest too, but we need to check on our teams as well because if the client is being unreasonable, that's something that we need to be able to back our teams on also. So you're looking out for both sides of the party. You want to make sure your people that you work with every day too aren't miserable because we've had some clients, none of which I've I've talked about, but they are unreasonable and that we have to say, you know what, I maybe we're not the right fit for you and it's OK to walk away from deals too in business development and sales.

That's a little bit different.

Neil Barrow: No, I agree. And you highlighted a great point because if you're bringing in messy bad clients for your delivery team, they're going to be unhappy and then that causes problems with your well, culture, work environment, but also you're working relationship within your team. And so yeah, you make a great, a great point because we, I think we've always had, we've all had that bad client that we've sourced and trying to make it work. And then it just, I'm sorry I did this like I'm we'll fix it, you know?

And so, yes, you're right. It's both sides. And so you spent many years at this consulting firm and then now you're moving into your new role, which is where you're at. OK, So tell me about your, how you got it.

Like, how did you get into this new space? Because it's different. I.

Erica Lappo: Don't know if I can say her name, but because of my network, she introduced me to my boss over at Barnes & Thornburg. And over a pretty long interview process, making sure that I was the right fit for them and that they were the right fit for me. We ended up, you know, agreeing. And I joined back in October of last year.

OK, so.

Neil Barrow: October of last year, so we're getting up on a year, yes. OK. So you're moving from, we went from payroll sales, high motor to more relationship building consultative right within finance and accounting consulting and now you're in legal and business development. Now, is this their first go at business development or it is?

Erica Lappo: That's why it took such a long time for the interview process. I think I am the first in my firm that looks like what I do. Pure origination, outward facing origination. There are some others across the country that sort of do what I do, but I'm really the first that's more relationship focused and bringing in deals.

OK, so.

Neil Barrow: Because probably some of those others are kind of hybrid, maybe growth or marketing or business development type roles, right? Those hybrid roles that we all know and love. But like for you, it's you are a pure origination role. And so when we talk about business development, it's those, there's those two paths.

It's origination, which is what you're doing. I'm hiring Erica to go generate business. And then all the other roles that you're talking about within your firm are really enablement where I'm hiring these people to help our firm go generate new business. OK.

Erica Lappo: Yes, I think that's. A good distinction and with origination too, I mean, there's a lot of other facets of my job, but that's how I judge myself is basically on what I'm able to bring in for the firm and so.

Neil Barrow: What was their idea behind this role? Just more client growth. So we need someone to go in there and make relationships or how to how were they thinking about it?

Erica Lappo: Yeah. So our firm. Is set up what I think is unique and now this is my first stint in a law firm so but what I've heard is unique is that our partners are incentivized to work on their clients more versus originating deals. And so for my firm, our role really makes sense because I can go out and originate deals.

No one's feeling competitive against me. Like, no, I want to go originate. This is my deal. So I don't have any of that.

It's they're all very excited that I'm out and just building brand awareness for the firm. We're I think close to 800 employee firm across 23 offices in the United States. But in Dallas, I mean, no one had really heard of us. And that's because the partners are working on deals.

They do deals everyday. That's what they like to do. That's what they went to school for. They're not out marketing the firm.

And so they brought me in to do that and raise brand awareness in the market and to set up meetings with those that we can, you know, bring on his clients.

Neil Barrow: And so I think you highlight this capacity want to for people that need to go and generate new business, right. So they're responsible for the clients ultimately and their relationships. And so you're coming in to help augment and build these new great relationships for your people and originate new opportunities for them. And I think that's where a lot of firms, if they don't have an Erica who high motor knows how to do it, like can't execute and see results.

That's where we get a little bit sideways because they're looking to that business development person as like this silver bullet, this like cure. Oh, wow. We just need the right person in here. And then we'll just get everything we want.

We'll grow how we want. And so how have you kind of helped manage expectations internally while delivering what you feel like that you can deliver, like where those expectations are kind of aligned? Did you have any challenges with that or was it pretty aligned from the beginning?

Erica Lappo: No, that was part. Of the interview process as I built a built a business plan for myself for year ones through Year 5 and what I thought was going to be attainable. And it listed everything from weekly activity metrics to what I thought I could bring into the year and what all the different activities that I would do so that they knew exactly what I like they could expect of me. And so, for example, activity metrics for new BDS out there, I still do like anywhere from 15 to 20 meetings a week.

That's

Neil Barrow: Who are these meetings with? So.

Erica Lappo: For me at a law firm, our best referral partners are going to be private equity firms, investment banks, wealth advisors and then all the other like CPA firms, fund auditors,

Neil Barrow: so. So you're having, you're still having 15 to 20 meetings a week.

Erica Lappo: Yes, that includes. The COI meetings that includes prospect meetings and that includes networking events. OK, so.

Neil Barrow: I would challenge anybody that's listening today to audit your calendar and see if you've got 15 to 20 meetings on it a week. Like that's, that's impressive that you're still at that high motor level again, if I.

Erica Lappo: Don't do. I think maybe that was something that ingrained in me in the beginning. If I don't do that amount of activity, I feel like anxiety. I feel, yeah, anxiety.

And I feel like I'm being lazy, almost like I can do more. Now. I do have to have dates, like I can get behind on emails if I've got too much going on. And Sunday, sometimes you pack your calendar and then prospect meetings pop up and you get overbooked.

And so I try really hard to set Monday mornings and Friday afternoons where I can plan for the week and then debrief from the week. So I was going to ask.

Neil Barrow: You how your calendar is typically set up if you had a rhythm. And so I'm the same way where my Mondays and Fridays, they're all virtual meetings if I have them, but it's admin or research or outbound or follow up or whatever I need to do. And then Friday's like my planning. Yes.

So like what it's coming up next week. What do I need to do? And so you're so you're kind of in the same rhythm it seems like on the bookends.

Erica Lappo: And I think that might have come from payroll. Yeah, maybe. We had internal meetings on both Mondays and Fridays. Yeah, so maybe it was just to make sure we weren't.

Like traveling on weekends or maybe. Yes, maybe we were in town for sure.

Neil Barrow: And so, OK, so you structured your calendar that way. So when you talk about these activities that you're doing, how did you develop this network of people to then have 15 to 20 meetings a week, right. So how did you get started?

Erica Lappo: You know, maybe this goes back to the Bridgepoint because I know that payroll, I wasn't networking. Yeah, no. This was all Bridgepoint this was and we had a great sales coach there to shameless plug for him at Topaz George. But basically their activity, you know, builds everything.

So basically how I started, my 2 directors introduced me to a couple of people. And each time I would meet with them, I would say, OK, who are two to three other folks in the market that you think are just great networkers that I need to know? And a couple of names came up all the time. 1 was yours.

One was Abby Fuqua. And then Emily and I started about the same time, but hers and Jen Cuello's name all started coming up too. Everybody's like, you've got I got to know. I was like, yes, OK.

And so and one of my bosses said if you go to an event and Abby Fuqua in the room, you're probably in the right room. That's that's great. Great plug. For Abby, Yeah.

There you go. Abby And so, you know, it was it was doing a lot of that every time I sat down with somebody. Now the first year one was meet anybody and everybody. Like, I mean, one of my best referral partners, year one, was a girl that used to work at WeWork.

And I mean, that's not somebody you would think would be able to refer finance services. But she knew when companies were moving their headquarters to Dallas. Oh, yeah. And so I would talk to her and she'd give me that Intel and I'd start reaching out and trying to set meetings.

Yeah. So.

Neil Barrow: You so I think you highlight a couple of different things that maybe I'll we'll click down on real quick is so it's the it's activity, but it's the right activity. I think when you're first getting started, you just do it like whoever, whatever, anybody and everybody. But then you highlighted. That question that everyone needs to ask is, hey, now that you know what I'm doing, what I'm focused on, who are the one to two people that come to mind that I would need to know?

Yes, that's it. Who are the best connectors? So if you're not integrating that question into your referral source meetings, we've got to start because that's how you build a really good network and build your web. Like that's the great way to do it.

So then you were also highlighting the right network. So how did you keep track of who was right, who wasn't maybe a fit for you? How did you ask those questions to determine should I be spending more time with these people? Like how did you determine that part of it?

Erica Lappo: Is you're going to mesh with who you mesh with 1 so just.

Neil Barrow: Vibe. Just vibe. Who you vibe with.

Erica Lappo: And then the second part is, you know you're asking what their sweet spot is, are their client, do you have client overlap? Are they meeting with the same types of people you are? I mean, if they are saying if you're focused on 20 to $500 million in revenue and they're focused on below $10 million of revenue, you don't need to meet with them again. You can say hi to them, but don't put them on your calendar again.

So you have to be really mindful. Your two is really mindful of who's taking your time now and then I would say your 3 is probably drilling it down even more and finding your like core network of folks, maybe 5 people in each industry that you keep meeting with on a regular basis.

Neil Barrow: They become more. Strategic and intentional about how we're sharing. So you shared this gal at WeWork, she'd just say, hey, I saw this company was moving to headquarters, thought you should know and then you're doing outbound. Yes.

Neil Barrow: So do you still do outbound strategically?

Erica Lappo: If I mean, I'm not going to send an email blast to CFOs and say, do you need my legal services? That's not going to be effective. And so it's, if there is somebody that's like, hey, I heard this company might be doing some acquisitions, I might put myself in a room where I know that person's going to be. Or I might look on LinkedIn and see who else they're connected to that I know and ask for an introduction, something that's a little bit more strategic.

I probably won't cold outreach anymore. I just don't know that it's effective for some people. It might be for me. I haven't seen a lot of success, you know, I think.

Neil Barrow: Some people still see success from like email work still like cold calling works like all of these things work, but these are avenues yeah to where like you've developed your how your rhythm and how you've seen successful pipeline building ultimately. And so you've kind of already built this thing. But I think it's really fair to say early on, just like me, I was trying every Ave. everything you've.

Erica Lappo: Got to try everything at the beginning and I mean even at Bridgepoint last year I would still do sequences in HubSpot. Now, I don't have a CRM just yet. We're implementing one right now or replacing 1. So that's why I haven't been doing any of those at all.

But it is good, like if you have events coming up or something like that, to create sequences for invites and drip campaigns in that sense. I mean, I think that there's a place for it still. I'm not saying don't do it. I think and some people and some businesses it's more effective for than others.

Neil Barrow: No, I one. 100% agree. And so I think when you're talking about like what these activity buckets look like, where are you seeing the most effective use of your time? Obviously it's with these 15 to 20 referral source meetings a week and being really strategic and intentional with your core group.

But what are some of the other activities that you like doing that you've seen results from? As far as like maybe networking, is that what you're networking? Outreach to people that you want to know different markets like what are some things that you've seen over your time that's that's been effective for you?

Erica Lappo: Yeah, so. One thing is networking groups. So if I'm not at a COI meeting, I mentioned some of my part of my metrics is networking activities. ACG has been super helpful in building my network.

I would say in a, I think I could echo several people, probably 90% of my network was built through ACG. So that's one that's been really helpful. Alliance of Merger & Acquisition Advisors is another one AM&AA. So when you go to.

Neil Barrow: These groups like that are your core industry focus. Yes, obviously some people won't have that opportunity just because there's not active networking or associations, but create them. OK. So tell me, tell me about that so.

Erica Lappo: Whenever I was at Bridgepoint in the beginning, I was focused on manufacturing, distribution, logistics companies. There was a company or a networking group that had a presence in Austin, but not one here in Dallas called Women in Manufacturing WiM. And so I reached out to them and said, hey, can we start, you know, a Dallas chapter? I can start trying to invite people.

And so we kind of got that off the ground. There were a couple people already wanting to do it, and so it made it helpful. But create it. If there's not one, create it another.

I mean, Emily Ackerman is the queen of this. She has small little niche networking groups for every focus area that she has. And that's not hard to create either. Start asking people who, if you have a focus in construction, who else do you know that works in construction or with construction clients?

OK, great. I'm going to invite them to my networking group. And then before you know it, you have a group of 25 to 40 people that are meeting once a month.

Neil Barrow: Yeah. And so you're highlighting like really like getting people together strategically that serve particular clients so you can all stay connected and top mind to each other, right and refer one another. It's fantastic.

Erica Lappo: Sounds like a full time job. It's.

Neil Barrow: Part of your job. It's part of your job, so. How do you balance that with everything else that you're doing right and we also have some of us has family life and so how do you balance all of this activity? Yeah, because it seems to me like it's super high activity that's driven a lot of your results over time.

So the.

Erica Lappo: Networking groups, what I would say is it's important not just to go to the networking groups, it's important to try and entrench yourself in the group. So like for example, when I join ACG, I, also join the women's committee. I was on the committee for a couple of years and then was asked to Co chair for Jen Cuello before she became president and then I became chair of the women's committee and have been for six years. And so it's not just about going to the groups, it's about actually being very active in them.

And that is your job. You are meeting with folks that are able to refer you business. And so it's not like you're doing this sub thing in addition to your job. That is your job.

Yeah, no. And I.

Neil Barrow: Love that. And that's one, again, high ROI activities that like you have to integrate into your thing, but you have to be intentional about it and you have to get in and then be able to extract conversations one-on-one from those groups, Yes. And so how have you done that? Like obviously everybody in ACG and some of these industry groups like they're very happy to go and grab coffee and meet, but how have you maybe extracted some of the tougher ones so.

Erica Lappo: For a good example of that would be a deal source event from either ACG or AM&AA. I'm my tactic is I look at the invite list or the RSVP list prior to try and target a couple that I want to try and bump into during the event itself. But then after the event, I set a day or two to do follow-ups. Hey, I'm sorry I didn't get to meet you.

Would love to set a call to understand how we can better partner together those types of emails and set meetings from there so that you are really capitalizing on all of the big networking events that you go to.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, and. Because if you're not. Because a lot of us want to just show up and then network or can go to happy hour. Yeah, it's fun, yeah.

But it really doesn't lead to the results that you want. And it's all in the follow up. It's all in. It is.

It's all in the follow up. I mean, I would say.

Erica Lappo: That with all of BD with everything, yeah, with all of business development, you can go do all of. This activity, what you're talking about, have this really high motor, but if you're not keeping track and following up with the people that you've already met with and they're going to forget. You, they're going to forget. I mean.

If they're anything like you and I, they're meeting with 15 to 20 people a week too, and you've got to be memorable. You got to stay top of mind.

Neil Barrow: I love that. And so when you think about your role, so you've been there about a year, where is it headed? Like where do you think that you're going to be spending more of your time, whether that's internal things like war, that's external, can just keep doing what you're doing. Like where do you see this heading?

Erica Lappo: Yeah, I mean. I think for the next two or three years, it's a lot of doing what I'm doing and continuing to build the relationships, continuing to educate on Barnes & Thornburg, my firm in the market and meeting with all the different sponsors and banks in town and saying, hey, these are ways that we can help you and your clients. Also, our team is growing and is excellent. It's so much fun to work with these guys.

They're very smart and they're very excited about this initiative to grow the market too. O we want to host a conference and we're focusing on ways to try and focus, to try and figure out how to best play in that conference and approach that conference to where it's a good use of time for the people that we're inviting to.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, so kind. Of creating some I call it gravity pulls yes like hey we're going to do why people? Want to come get eyeballs on? Us get come in and talk to us, right?

So how are we creating some of these gravity pulls? And so I like that because that is BD's job too, is like putting these, putting our people at the forefront, creating gravity pulls for people to come and be interested in having conversations with us. And so I love that's where it's headed. So what opportunities like, you know, we'll wrap up here with this question, but when you think about the future of BD with all the tools and AI and everything, the stuff that's coming out, where do you see the role of like what you've built and how you run your business?

How does that mash together in the future?

Erica Lappo: I think, and we might watch this in 10 years and laugh because this could be a completely naive statement, but I think relationships are always going to be the driving factor. And I don't think technology can replace those relationships. I think technology can enable you to build the relationships easier, but I don't think our job is going anywhere anytime soon. Now, hopefully we're not laughing at me, right?

Who knows? I think though, it's always going to be there's going to be a people aspect to our job and there's a trust factor and if you can build the good relationships and build the good trust, then you're going to be able to keep helping clients.