A Mother & Daughter in BD: Bridging 25 Years of Industry Evolution

Kelly Krone: I was on the phone with her when I first sent my first outreach message. Like, I don't know, it's like just send. It just send it. I think we try to sometimes because we feel insecure.

We try to overcomplicate or try to sound different than we are. And really, you know, for what she does. I told her it was like, there's curiosity already out there.

Neil Barrow: Hi, welcome to I Hope This Email Finds You Well. A business development podcast for business development professionals at professional service firms. I'm Neil Barrow, I'm your host. I'm the founder of EnabledBD and UndergroundBD, where I help firms build their business development function or enhance it and help business development professionals upskill.

I'm joined today by Kelly Krone and Mali Krone. Kelly is a business development executive at a large professional service firm, and Mali is a business development IR professional at a small financial services firm. Welcome. Thanks for joining me today.

Mali Krone: Thank you for having.

Neil Barrow: Us, absolutely. That was in sync. I love it. So we got a unique podcast today where we're going to be talking with two business development professionals, one who's been doing business development for a while and the other one who's just kind of getting started and been in there about A, how long have you been at your firm?

A.

Mali Krone: Year and a half.

Neil Barrow: Year and a half, so somebody just getting started. And so this will be fun to kind of talk about both spectrums today. And so how I always like to start these out is we'll start with you, Kelly is tell me a little bit about how you got into business development. What was your start there?

Kelly Krone: I entered into business development at probably Mali's age, around 22 or three. Young mother I, you know, was doing a different role in the organization and saw the business development people come in and they were very successful. And as a young female, I, you know, watched that. And at the time my then boss was female.

And, you know, I just went over and said, hey, you know, if they can do it, I can. And she took a chance on me. And here we are, 25 years.

Neil Barrow: That's awesome. So OK, I think that's similar to how a lot of people get started as we sometimes don't just come out of school saying, hey, I want to do business development. We're kind of like, OK, we jump into a corporate situation, we see the business development professionals and then we're like hey, out. That could be something for me, that could be a career path.

So what industry were you in when you first started in the business development function?

Kelly Krone: I was in mortgages wholesale lending.

Neil Barrow: Wholesale lending, OK. So what did that look like? What did business development look like at this firm?

Kelly Krone: That look like calling cold calling.

Neil Barrow: Cold calling. Let's go.

Kelly Krone: My first go around was phone sales. OK. So I did wholesale lending, but I did it nationally. And So what I really had to do was make a lot of calls and that looked like not having any tools back then.

So you know you went, you know you searched mortgage brokers and went down the Yahoo phone book of, you know, your PC.

Neil Barrow: Yeah. And how many, how many calls were you making like in a week on a weekly basis? Because if it's cold, call heavy like.

Kelly Krone: Oh, yeah, we did about, we, well, she tracked her calls. So everybody got a call report at the end of the week how many calls they made and tracked her phones and probably did about 45 calls a day. That was the goal, 30 to 45 calls a day. That was just, you know, they used to say your phone is your oar.

So, you know, back then I was 20, 23 years old and didn't know any better. So yeah, I just made a lot of.

Neil Barrow: Calls. That's so, yeah, that's how I got started, right In sales role. It was outside sales, so I was cold calling, cold emailing. I was knocking on doors, going in buildings, getting kicked out of buildings as a young sales Rep because I didn't know any better as well.

I was told to do these things and that's how you're going to be successful. So you just do it, right? So tell me like, so you started exercising that muscle around cold calling. What did you like about?

Did you like it? Did you hate it?

Kelly Krone: First, I hated it OK, I had it's definitely something that you have to get used to doing and it's really habit building. So one of the things that I did early on was in this was part of, you know, what we did to get comfortable on the phone. Because really there's a large part of that is just getting comfortable talking in front of other people, getting used to being on the phone, getting a comfort level with that. So we would go into an empty room by ourselves and make calls there where we could kind of have that comfort of, you know, not having the audience.

And then you get used to having the audience all around you, your peers and everybody else. And it just you really it, they fade out, you just really forget so.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, and so, well, Mali, do you do any cold calling right now?

Mali Krone: Right now, a little bit less. The internship that I actually had in college did lots of cold calling, so had my fair share of, you know, getting hung up on, Yeah.

Neil Barrow: Exercising that muscle for sure. And I think it's again, people are afraid to do that because there's a lot of fear associated with it, which I had early on and I still have today. It's still not my favorite thing to do, but it is an effective use of our time if we do it right. But like on that note, like zooming out to now today, do you still cold call?

Kelly Krone: I do OK, yes, it's definitely a muscle and you have to continue to exercise it obviously as the world has changed the receptivity, You know, there was a time where cold calling is never dead, but there is just different mediums now. We have emails and you know we could do that back then too, but it wasn't as email heavy back then. But I think really, you know, as my career has progressed, I understand that, you know, the internal conflict that you feel about cold calling is really you battling your own fears. So it's it's.

Neil Barrow: Your head trash.

Kelly Krone: It is so it's really mental. It's it's an internal conflict about, you know, let's stay comfortable or let's, what would happen if you made one and battled that fear and what really happens after you feel empowered by doing that?

Neil Barrow: Yes. No, I agree. And it's not as cold calling is a very like almost 0 portion of my day with my role right now. But it was still when I was business development.

It was a slice of my daily pie where I had to come in and I had to get in front of some of the right people and the only way to do that was to pick up the phone sometimes. So, OK, you were in mortgage wholesale lending, you were calling brokers 45 calls a day. Did you all have talk tracks? Did you have training associated with that?

Kelly Krone: We did at first. You know that those early days we would kind of develop sort of a script. Nobody really went off the script. The script was really more of a comfort level, just to kind of have something in front of you to reference if you got.

Neil Barrow: Stuck on the phone?

Kelly Krone: Sure, yes. So you didn't want to sound like a robot?

Neil Barrow: You don't want to sound like a robot.

Kelly Krone: But also, and again, when I said I was doing a lot of cold calling phone sales and I had national clients. So really it gives you, it gives you a reference point to look back on, but also you develop your own authenticity, reaching out and connecting and connecting without having a face to face. I didn't realize until later how pivotal that was for me in my career because it really got me attuned to voice inflections and understanding. Because you're listening for it more than anything and you become a listener.

Neil Barrow: Yeah. Well, and I think we could all be better listeners, but I think that a cold calling specifically when you're not face to face with somebody, you really have to focus in on that. And I think you also mentioned something that's really crucial, which is like part of this making those cold calls is finding your voice and how you talk about yourself, how you talk about your firm, how you talk about your services. It's all kind of included in that.

And you can't train through that. You got to go get reps and that's the crucial. So you're making these calls and you're in the mortgage lending space. And then what was your next step from the mortgage lending space?

Kelly Krone: I got into, so as you know, for the older people that are watching 2008, we had a huge economic crash. And so again, I was very young when I started that and I had to find a new career. And you know, I had only been in mortgages. So it was sort of a scramble to figure out, OK, the mortgage industry right now is dead career wise unless you wanted to go work and loss mitigation, which, you know, that wasn't ideal.

So I got into banking and I got into treasury. I got into what I sold was a spin off product. It was a software product of treasury within the banking industry. And it was really when fintech just took off.

So the bank that I work for hired reps, sales reps, business development professionals to develop, you know, within their geography, cold calling to sell a product over face to face and phone. But it was more localized here in DFW.

Neil Barrow: OK. So you were, you moved into treasury sales at a bank. And so then you were like, obviously any economic disruption is going to cause, right, some shuffling of the deck for people. And so I think that what's important is the skill set that you develop.

And so you know how to go out and get a meeting, you know how to go out and build pipeline. And so then you moved into a role that was financial services still, but you were selling to a different. C-level.

Kelly Krone: C-level folks.

Neil Barrow: And so tell me how those like your rhythm changed and what you did to try to get in front of the C-level. Was it still just all cold calling where you have face to face meetings were like, how did you kind of develop that arm?

Kelly Krone: I continue to cold call and that was a skill that I would say during this time whenever I was in banking, that's really when that cold calling muscle was in full force. It's probably I, you know, I look back on that and I think that was probably prior to my next role, that was possibly the most challenging position that I've had. You know, I had, I had to learn how to elevate myself differently in that role, especially when you're dealing with C-level executives, it's less about the it's less about the product and more about how you're influencing. And so you have to come at it in a different way.

And so I think, you know, in mortgages, you're going towards a specific need that's already there. You just need them to use your bank, you know, and it's relationship driven, but it's also about getting the job done. In this particular, you know, role. It was more about how can I build connection?

How can I build a relationship, especially being, you know, and Mali can speak to this. You're young and you look young and you're dealing with executives that are, you know, your parents age. So that was how do you have influence? How do you develop who you are as person and how do you connect?

Neil Barrow: Yeah, and I and again you bring up a really good point. I think it's once you find your voice and you build some confidence, I think confidence plays a big role into that. But it's also because we all struggle with coming into some of those conversations and feeling like that you're inferior as a business development professional. Well, why does this CEO, CFO, or COO want to talk to me?

Like what value can I actually bring? And so I think there's like this confidence level, like I, hey, I have value because I've got this particular set of products or skills or services that we that are unique and I know I can be helpful. And that's hard to make those shifts without the reps at it. And so you've got to, you got to develop those reps to have the influence, right?

Kelly Krone: You do these. Are people too? I think a lot of, and again, it's been, you know, a very rewarding career for me on not just professionally, but personally because what you just said about knowing who you are, that's really what drives, It's all your internal growth that's driving who you are on the inside and how you connect on the outside.

Neil Barrow: Yep. And so Mali, I see nodding over there. I think like you're just getting started. And so you know how, you know, thinking about confidence in some of those conversations, that's got to be difficult right when you first start on.

So like how have you seen yourself grow over the last like 18 months and having some of those conversations?

Mali Krone: Yeah, I think there's a couple layers to it. So the first is, you know, when you're selling a product that could potentially be complicated or someone's not used to looking at every day, honestly, starting out with a script is helpful, especially for the technical components of it. But I think then knowing how to translate that to the average person is also very important because you know, you're throwing around buzzwords and no one actually knows what they mean. And so that's one side of it is just building up trust in yourself beforehand.

And then I also think honestly, hyping yourself up before on the way to meetings, a lot of the time it's less like, OK, what am I going to say? Am I going to say all the right things? No, it's just making sure I'm in a good head place to feel like I'm prepared because I am prepared. And so I don't think myself into, oh crap, I didn't look at this enough or this enough.

It's more so, you know, I'm ready, I'm excited. This is supposed to be exciting. I also think something too note is a lot of people don't actually like to talk about work. It's you know, getting to the point of the conversation you need to, but also the fun part is when you actually get to connect.

And so I think figuring out ways to do that when there's generational gaps and careers of 30 plus years when I'm in the first two or three of mine, it can be overwhelming. But I think the mindset is really important. Same thing with cold calling SO.

Neil Barrow: No, I agree. And I think you brought up an interesting point, which is something that, you know, I struggle with and I see other business development professionals struggle with, which is going into a new industry and with all the technical jargon and all the services and like, how do we deliver this? And that is good to know, but it's also a excuse. We can create an excuse.

Well, I don't feel confident enough or comfortable enough talking about this product because I don't know all the ins and outs. And so I'm just not going to make my cold calls or I'm not going to try to go get a meeting. And that can create that friction to going and doing the job that you need to do. And so it's like you talk about mindset.

It's like, well, I don't have to know all the details, but I have to be confident that our firm does. And so let me go bring it up. Let me talk about it. Is this interesting?

Great. I don't have all the answers. Hey, would it make sense for us to get together as a team, right?

Mali Krone: And I think knowing when to, you know, pass off, I'm the first person to raise my hand and say I don't know the answer to that question. But I know some people who can't answer all of your questions. And having that type of intuition is helpful. But I also think, I think I know when to hit that point, and that's all I know it takes.

Neil Barrow: Confidence to be able to say that you don't have the answers.

Kelly Krone: Yeah, it does. I think that, you know, in professional services, we can get bogged down and having to know everything before we get there, having all the answers and the insecurity that you feel thinking that not having the right people on the call, you know, if you don't have the right people, if you don't have, you know, the right skill set that you know, it's, it's going to be a fail. And I don't, I think that can create some paralysis. And I think really, you know, if you know, reach internally and ask yourself, OK, how I think I said this to Mali in the very beginning, your first step is getting appointed.

You need an appointment. And that's really what your goal is, the first step. It's to get appointed, get the appointment, let them appoint you for their time, you know?

Neil Barrow: And it's exercising that muscle, which is to generate conversations, which is ultimately our goal of business development. And I think whenever I first started in sales, like at ADPI showed up, I think I may have told the story before, but I think it goes in line with what we were talking about, which is just doing the activity to get the meeting to get the conversation. And so I showed up my first day, my computer wasn't ready. They had a Yahoo printed map of my territory and they had a stack of business cards.

And my manager told me, I don't want to see you today. I want you to go out and give as many business cards away as you can in your territory. And I was like, well, what am I supposed to talk about? He's like, it's payroll, man.

I just say you have a payroll service, your ADP, they'll you know, and that's scary because I didn't know anything. But it helped build that uncomfortableness and that fear that I had about going and talking to people without knowing anything. Because again, it's in the spirit like when you're in a sales role in a grinder, like you just got to do the work. But then as you develop, you understand that it's in the spirit of wanting to be helpful to the right people.

And so that's the muscle that needs to develop. And so you mentioned something that you told Mali whenever she first started, like what are some of the things that you told her when you found out that she was going, you know, doing this new role in IR and BD for a small professional service firm?

Kelly Krone: One of the first things I remember mentioning is she showed me and she did not, she didn't, you know, write the email, But I remember looking at a sales email that was generated by somebody I don't know. And I just looked at it and thought I told her I was like, this is way too long. No one's ever going to read this. And there was, it was information Rich and which is, you know, there's a time and a place for that.

However, in an email when you don't know someone and you're trying to engage them for a time, taking up a lot of their time with a very long email is not the way to get more time. I.

Neil Barrow: Agree. I think how I describe that and some of my training coaching is like, I don't need them to do any work, right. I don't need you to. I don't need to send if I'm asking them to do work, if I'm sending an email and asking them to understand what I'm talking about and then have to think about is this applicable?

And like that's a lot of work for somebody on the receiving end. It's like, hey, just get to the point, right? And it's, I think it's our job to create curiosity. And so if we can create curiosity, that's not sending you our deck and demo and about us and nobody cares.

It's like trying to create curiosity around a problem that we solve. And so I think, I think how we go about trying to generate meetings is like that's an art. And so, but it also going back to what you talked about, it's also has to incorporate our personality too. It doesn't feel like us.

Kelly Krone: And very your authenticity shows up in that. And I think however you can connect in the shortest. You know, I told Mali 3 sentences Max and you have to make those the most impactful 3 sentences and the shortest, you know, especially with handhelds 'cause I know that on my iPhone as soon as I see something long and it, I, my brain turns off, you know, so.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, people are looking at their email on their watch. Yeah, I mean.

Kelly Krone: You don't scroll, scroll like, you know, you don't want to have to again work for, you know, letting me know who I or letting you know who I am, you know. So I think that in those when whenever you're engaging someone for the first time, that keeping that short and you know, really human connection is not that complicated, you're just creating curiosity.

Neil Barrow: I think it's harder for some, and I think depending upon our personalities, like it takes different work to build different skill sets. Sure, right. In this role, and I think anyone with any personality can be successful because everybody goes about it. And how you approach generating conversations and generating value, right?

It's different for everybody and it feels differently.

Kelly Krone: Very. So we all probably go about it in different ways.

Neil Barrow: So you're selling Treasury services?

Kelly Krone: Oh yes, so we're going back to that.

Neil Barrow: Let's. Go back to that. Yeah. So you're selling treasury services and then what did your career path look like at the bank?

So you're selling and then?

Kelly Krone: Well, the product that I sold was in Treasury services. I didn't sell all Treasury services, but this one in particular was a fintech product that they hired sales reps to sell into independent of Treasury. So.

Neil Barrow: Were you calling on? Yeah. Well, you're growing up so.

Kelly Krone: Well, and so were you selling to clients like of the bank or were you selling to prospective clients? B to B. So I was selling into companies here in Dallas, Fort Worth.

Neil Barrow: Regardless of their bank.

Kelly Krone: Regardless of their bank and that became a challenge because nobody knew who my bank wasn't the lending institution or in their credit facility. So I had to really think about how I was going to sell a product that really that they're they're, you know, credit banks had in a different, you know, but how can I how can I be, you know, solutions oriented to engage with this product when they can just turn around and go back to their, you know, current relationships and so how?

Neil Barrow: Did you do that?

Kelly Krone: I did it through offering a solution, but also it was relationship driven. It was all relationship driven, OK.

Neil Barrow: So let's let's take a moment to talk about that. So you started cold calling which is transactional, right? Because it's very similar to how I got started where I was, I was on boarding about two new clients a week at ADP. So it was very transactional.

I had to get you on boarded and then move on. But then as I got into public accounting, that was more relationship based and that was a muscle that I really hadn't exercised as much. So how did you transfer to the relationship side?

Kelly Krone: And banking's very relational, this particular product and what you're talking about as far as cold calling and all that can be transactional initially. However, it, what it did is it taught me the power of influencers and the power of a network because I sold to CFOs because they knew other CFOs I was dealing with. So I could say I met with so and so over at, you know, we're working on this with them. I could show how just your association with the people that are they hold to be credible influences.

And so going back to what I was saying initially, as my career has progressed, understanding influence has been more of a game changer then the tactics. I mean the tactical helps like you need to know the tactical.

Neil Barrow: And so when you're so let's let's unpack that a little bit. So whenever you were meeting with a CFO and working with a client, right, that was becoming a client, did you ask for referrals? Did you ask for introductions and names during your process? You did that I.

Kelly Krone: Would say where?

Neil Barrow: Did you inject? Where did you insert that? And do you have a like, do you like remember what you like? Did you have a go to line or go to time?

Kelly Krone: Really, and I'll go back to this is going to be a bigger answer than I would say when you went going back to tactical, you do take the right steps to follow through and execute from the very beginning. So meaning, you know, you get a meeting, maybe you don't, or you engage them, try to engage them for a meeting. And perhaps it takes 234 times, even though you think you're, you know, your engagement, your email, your car, it's going to a black hole. It's not.

And so where I'm going with this is that when you're engaging someone like that and you demonstrate and again, in a way that, you know, you can be likable to someone, not annoying, but they, people appreciate work ethic. And I've learned that in my career, especially when you're dealing with people well at all levels, but you're dealing with a C-suite, they didn't get there by sitting on their hands. And so whenever you know, can engage someone like that, it builds a level of respect. And even if they can't give you Business Today, perhaps they go with another provider, perhaps, but you've already developed that rapport along the way that you can say, Hey, I know I couldn't help you this go round, but maybe, you know, I'm trying to get in here.

Do you know anyone or do you know them well or how can you? And they'll offer to help you know, And so I think that's a big deal to understand that your credibility starts the moment that you try to get in the door and it and it keeps going as you know, mature through that sales cycle. And at the end, if they don't go with you know, that's why you have to treat every person it's not a loss necessarily

Neil Barrow: so. So I like, I like how you're talking about that as like our professional persistence and showing that we're a professional and that we're, we're here focused on solutions right to problems that they're dealing with. We might not win, but we're building some of this rapport and relationships showing up. It's showing up, but I think it's also understanding that sometimes we don't make it easy for people that we built relationships with or built rapport with to make it easy for them to help us, right?

And so by not asking, we're doing ourselves a disservice, even though that it might feel uncomfortable when we first start trying to ask.

Kelly Krone: And it's another just overcoming a fear of no, yes, I mean, you get told no a lot. And you know that in this role.

Neil Barrow: Sure. And so you're, you're out there talking to CFOs, you're getting meetings, you may or may not, they may or may not become a client. But you're asking like, hey, I'm trying. Do you know anybody else that this could be a fit for any of your other CFOs that you know that are looking?

So you're using that to then?

Kelly Krone: Broaden your network.

Neil Barrow: Your network and then create other relationships which I feel is a hard thing to get when you get started to do.

Kelly Krone: You want to speak to that?

Neil Barrow: Yeah, I was going to ask how like when you think about building your network and influence like how are you thinking about that as you're as you're starting?

Mali Krone: Honestly, I think being from the South, it's helpful. I think building a network in DFW is completely different than building a network in New York or California. And those are just different geographies that I've continued to expand into. But I think for me, something that was really important was getting face to face at some point, because I think that's how you really establish trust in a role like this.

And from where I sit, what I mentioned earlier, knowing when to pass off the meeting, I'm also building rapport, yes, for myself, but on behalf of other people at a firm. And so I think it's important that, you know, people like you and think that what you're doing is actually real and you're being genuine about it. You know, you're not trying to scam them. You're not a sleazy salesperson who's asking for their credit card information or something like that.

Like it's, it's real and, you know, you genuinely want to help. And so I think in terms of building a network, I think persistence is important. I also think similar to why we're all sitting here today, you know, a lot of the resources weren't necessarily available a couple years ago. Conversations weren't had for a BD role that should have been had.

And so I think honestly, working the muscle of asking for mentorship, asking for help is something that I, again, I'm happy to do because I think there's so much to learn and people will help if you ask.

Neil Barrow: I would agree. And I think you bring up a good point is, you know, part of our job in business development is getting the meeting building trust. But then we need our professionals to come in and that can be challenging if we don't do our job to prep them to set expectations to help them be better because they may or may not have a a BD muscle themselves. And so when you think about, you know, your role, you were selling a product really, right.

But then I know that you moved into the accounting space And so and I want to also, I know that you also were the manager of a sales team. So I want to talk about what makes a good Rep too. But while we're on this subject around working with partners now, like could you talk about how you've seen that coordination of getting the meeting, getting the team together then where it maybe could use some extra help versus where it's been successful for you?

Mali Krone: Yeah, something that I like to say is, and maybe in a bigger firm this is true, is, you know, not my circus, not my monkeys, except it is my circus and they are my monkeys. And so I think getting everyone on the same page when everyone's contact switching and you know, you have people all over the place, it's really important to honestly, again, get the in person. I think that C suites listen when you're in all together in the same room and they can feel the conviction. I think that's what drives them.

It's what got them there and it's also what helps them understand the importance of the meeting. I don't even think that showing up and talking about the product is the hard part. I think being likable is the hard part when you're working with very technical people and that's like not a dig on them at all. It's just very one track minded.

And you know, there's sort of like I was talking about with building your network in some, you know, different industries, it's normal to say how are you, how's your family doing? You know, you get a little bit more personal and in other ones it's 30 seconds you're in so.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, it's, it's being able to read. Yeah.

Mali Krone: The room a little bit, yeah.

Neil Barrow: In the room that. Takes that takes experience right and reps at it, But like I think you bring up a point is like we've got very technical practitioners that have a very certain skill set that they're coming in to talk about that skill set or that deep knowledge around something. And so I feel like that our job is to keep it more high level. And you said likability, which I agree with to a certain extent, but I think that it's more important to display the confidence like that's what that is a.

100%.

Neil Barrow: Am I confident in this team to deliver on what I need them to deliver on for a particular problem or a growth opportunity that we're pursuing or whatever that is? And I think likability plays a part in that, having them have confidence in US because we want to do business mainly with people that we like because life is a little too short to spend time with people we don't like. So I think that there is, I think, I think you're on to something. But when you're thinking about building your network as you're getting started, how do you like, how do you even start to build your network?

Obviously you're cold calling, cold emailing, you're finding the path. But like, how did you get started with BD? Like what does that look like?

Mali Krone: Well. I can answer this a couple of different ways, but honestly, this goes to building your network. So I actually found my opportunity through my mom's network. It was sort of a, you know, oh, I overheard you guys saying something at Ascension — where all

Neil Barrow: good Business transactions take place.

Mali Krone: And you know, she's like, I know somebody called my mom. My mom was like, this is an interesting opportunity, called them, made them meet with her in person, like we're all talking about exactly. And so connected me with this opportunity I have now. And that's sort of how I got in the BD space in terms of how I actually started building my network.

I think like we were talking about with the mental battle, there's a lot of, you know, what does this say about me? What if they don't answer? What if I'm annoying type of thing? And I think honestly closing my eyes and just shooting maybe a little bit everywhere to start and again, approaching it from a position of being humble and not even really selling at first of like, what can I learn from you and your experience?

I also think something interesting is like we talked about meeting in person, but also going to events. I think the DFW network in general likes to collaborate. And so, you know, you get in the door with one person and maybe three other people don't answer you, but then you're all at the event and you're talking to the person that you met. And they're all like, oh, I think I recognize you from somewhere.

And you're like, you don't, but let's think that you do. I am everywhere. Right.

Mali Krone: And so honestly, I think navigating that, and I also think this goes into network, it goes into, you know, conversations of passing off to partners, but, you know, qualifying the people that you're talking to. And I know that this is a really big cornerstone for where you sit to right now, Neil, But you know, and it's, and it's not coming from a place of can they help me? It's really coming from a place of, you know, is there some synergy here?

Neil Barrow: Yeah, because we don't want to waste people's time. We don't want to be a walking waste of time like a lot of BD folks can be, right? And so I think I think you made it some good points. So like when you're first getting started, you just got to start trying to generate conversations because I'm assuming that when you go to a small firm, based on my experience with these firms and other business development professionals at these firms is there's not a lot of structure or guidance around where to spend your time.

And so we've got to figure that out. So how I always talk about how to figure this out quickly is like, who are our best clients today? What do they look like? Where are we having success?

What are the products or services where we're having success? And then I want to spend at least a majority of my time in that bucket. But then I also need to expand because I have to go to events and I need to go network and build my network. I think that's high activity level is one of the better things that anybody can do like that.

That will kind of cover up any skill set deficiencies if I've got a high motor. But eventually you burn out and we need to avoid the burnout by focus. And so whenever you Kelly were then the treasury, yes, product sales and the transition into management, yes. Would you agree that a high motor like high activity was one of the things that you were looking for?

Or what did you find to lead to most successful reps that you that you managed?

Kelly Krone: I looked for consistency, so I looked at a resume and I would look at how long and again, there's exceptions, but when someone is in sales and they do well, they don't leave. They don't hop for the next best thing. Because you spend so long building, you can't just walk off and leave what you did, especially when you're in a consultative selling or a matrixed sell like professional services. Because building a network takes a lot of time.

I mean, I'm still building a network that doesn't end. And so when you're building a network or you've spent, you know, 18 months cold calling and you look at someone as a candidate and you're going, OK, they spent two years here. They spent one year here, they spent one year here. How consistent are they going to be and sticking to it, first of all.

But sticking to picking up the phone every day and getting motivated to go out and meet people requires sticking to it. You know, You have to be consistent in that.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, no, I agree. I would, I would say consistency. I think, you know, sometimes the job is like the resume is a reflection of your commitment to the consistency and the success that you're having. I think obviously, you know, a high motor is something that I really look for is like, are you willing going to your consistency?

Are you willing to do the things the activity that you need to do to be successful? That's the first indicator is what I would look for. The second, obviously I would, but I rather have someone I can coach because you can't teach a high motor.

Kelly Krone: No, that's that's. You can't. You can teach everything else, but you cannot teach high motor.

Neil Barrow: And when we look at hiring business development folks, sometimes we default to, well, they have a great network. Well, that's and that's tough because I've seen really great folks that have moved dump their network, but they're at a stage where they're not necessarily going to do all of the activity that's needed to do to consistently generate opportunities. Because of that, they're relying too heavily on their network. Or we've got somebody that doesn't know what the expectations are for the activity level, like 45 calls a day.

That's a lot like some firms don't even know that's they should be doing that. I want to scale that down to 30 these but I don't even know that I can. Even hit that, yeah, I know that's, that would be tough right now, but when you so you're looking for consistency and a high motor. And So what did you do to set expectations or help support them?

Because I know a lot of firms are looking at this well. We just want to hire somebody and let them loose.

Kelly Krone: I think first of all, you missed the mark on that. When you don't have someone you need, you need someone. You need to understand what somebody's values are and if they align with not just, you know, who you need in your culture, but also who are they as a person? What drives them Understand that what where do their values align?

Where do they want to go in their career? How can you help them get there? Is this, you know, a three-year stunt or is this going to be, you know, something that is more like 10? And so I think that's, I think you need to care about their career too, not just look for someone to fill a hole.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, which I think that as business development when they first started in professional services, that's what it's been is like we need somebody to go out and generate a million $2,000,000 worth of pipeline and clients. But it hasn't been necessarily is this a career path and how do they fit into our firm and what does that look like long term? It's more of been whole fill, but I think as business development is maturing in the spaces and different industries, legal, accounting, consulting, financial services, it's all, they're all different maturity levels. And so I think you're starting to see this being a career path and what is the right person that we need in this role rather than, hey, we just need more clients and more leads, like let's hire somebody that'll just go do that.

Kelly Krone: I would say, you know, I'm going to piggyback off that, but quality is important. And when you're choosing someone for that role, you know, it's all about really what are you looking for someone to fill a hole? Because I think once and you know this as well as I do, when you get into that role, the expectations of that role are largely undefined. But whatever it is, knowing what those are upfront will largely determine the success of that person.

Neil Barrow: Agreed. We're putting business development as firm leaders. We're putting business development professionals in a really tough spot by not defining this and setting expectations and then helping support them to hit their goals because if they hit their goals and the firm hits their goals too. And so I think you keyed in on a point that's really important for firm leaders to hear is like if you're thinking about hiring a business development person or you have BD people, do they know what expectations are outside of just a dollar figure?

Because we all have internal and external responsibilities, right? Some of us lean more heavily on the external like origination of new opportunities. Some of us are kind of hybrid. We're, we're also responsible for proposals and events and but we're also in charge of generating some conversations.

And then we have enablement folks which are really internal and more kind of growth minded folks where they're spending most of their time internally where you have marketing slash BD roles. And so again, this ambiguity is leading to a lot of maybe confusion or exactly where do we start as a firm and how do we hire to fill this kind of growth gap. And so when you're and well, let me switch over to Mali real quick. So let's talk about internal.

External because you're in a small firm, so you wear a lot of hats. So whenever you came in, like I'm sure they were still figuring it out and we're still probably figuring it out. But where do you find your time spent from when you first started to where you're finding maybe more of a focus or success around how you can be most valuable to the firm?

Mali Krone: Yeah, I think things looked a little bit different when I had first started. So I sort of slowly ingrained myself in this, worked part time up until graduation and then sort of hit the ground running. I remember my first day they asked me to read 250 pages on hedge fund structures. So I think a lot of the heavy lifting came from learning the ins and outs of just honestly a new language.

And so sort of what we talked about earlier, but I slowly kind of saw my role for more, you know, learning the ropes and kind of helping more operationally to really going out and just hitting the ground running. And I honestly think that was helpful because I think if I would have sat and tried to master everything perfectly first, those first conversations never would have happened the way that they should have. But from where it is today, completely different as the business has expanded and, you know, we've established some trust and they trust me to create my own structure really. And as a more of a Type A person, as my mom knows, I, I really do thrive in creating my own structure.

Chaos can come very quickly. But I think honestly, I set very specific time frames of day. I think that honestly, as someone who wears many hats, I spend all of my Tuesday's marketing because I contact switching is honestly just too much. And I mean that by like social media and more, you know, add email or type of campaigns, things like that.

And then I spend my Wednesdays mornings doing follow-ups every week and every other day. It's sort of split internal, external.

Neil Barrow: OK. So you're starting to see kind of your weekly calendar structure, which is super important for consistency and making sure that nothing gets dropped. We have to book time on our calendar for specific things. So whenever you're thinking about getting your structure right, like are you doing proposals and events?

Are you handling some of those marketing type things and then you're also calling and building relationships. So tell me a little bit about like what are you doing on a weekly basis it.

Mali Krone: Really depends. Yeah, sure. As they yeah. And I think a lot of people say that, you know, but I think with where I sit, it genuinely is it can be consistent and it can be completely different everyday.

And I think making myself stay flexible has honestly been a challenge. I think like you can get hyper fixated on doing things. I honestly think when you're in fundraising mode, you're in, you're in raising mode, you know, you're going out, it's very hard to sit at a desk, yes, to build your pipeline and you know, all of those important things. But it's less.

Is the sentence on LinkedIn perfect? You know, but I think where I spend most of my time today is the last couple months with the market that we work in. It has been a lot of building up internally to be prepared to go out for a long period of time. And I think, you know, you take a month or two when things are slowing over the holidays or summer months sometimes when people aren't around or as responsive and you take that time to build up.

I think that's really helpful to have that infrastructure for when you do go out in relationship build because you're not scrambling to write a proposal. You're like OK I wrote this, have a couple updates here and there but I don't have to start from zero. Yeah.

Neil Barrow: And so, yeah, the seasonality of our businesses and kind of how when buying season is versus fundraising or whatever it looks like it like in building that into our yearly kind of plan, like going into the next year and like thinking about what that looks like, I think that's really important. And then so going back to you, Kelly, and thinking about your management time, what were the most helpful things that you did as a manager to help your reps be successful?

Kelly Krone: I think obviously shadowing, yeah, allowing them to shadow me. Also, one of the things and what she just talked about, you know, every day you sit down, you need to understand what you're going to be doing. So structuring out your day, knowing what that is before you sit down again, everybody, anyone who knows me knows I'm not a super-duper Type A, so I can have the structure in the shell and what I do in the middle of it is all real really trial and error. So there's flexibility in that, but when you're talking about, you know, meeting setting and because when you know this, you know, when you set meetings, you go two weeks of heavy meetings and then you're 2 weeks off because you're having to set more meetings.

So it's very. Roller coaster. Yes, and being out of the office takes you off the computer, takes you off the phone, takes you away from the motor that's, you know, moving everything. So you understand not only the cyclical nature of what it is that you're actually, you know, out there doing, but also the cyclical nature of your own structure, of your own, you know, that you've built.

Neil Barrow: Yeah. And I think I think you've you've keyed in on it is like how to help folks get started early is like setting expectations, then shadowing, showing them how to do it, like listening to them. It's coaching and feedback and you know, quite honestly, that's not what business development professionals need. And so we've got to know ourselves whether we're type A or kind of Type A or not Type A or not structured or loosey-goosey, whatever that looks like, because that will help determine what environments that I can be most successful, right?

Where if you are a type A structured person, then you can go into an unstructured environment and find clarity and some of the chaos that is the day-to-day. But if you're not someone who can do that, then you need to go to a larger firm that has a manager that has support and the structure and expectations to then be able to be the most successful version of yourself as a professional. And so I think you're kind of keying in on that is like knowing myself if you're looking for a BD role, like reflecting on who you actually are and then what environment you can be most successful in.

Kelly Krone: I will say too, that a lot of the hiring, you know, some areas that you know, you can make a mistake on hiring and also when you're a candidate looking is that you need to understand what the sales cycle looks like. Because some people, when I was in mortgage banking, I was every 30 days, you know, my deals closed at the end of the month, then I got ready and my deals closed at the end of the month. That's a short sales cycle. When you're dealing in professional services, your sales cycle can be 18 months to 24 months.

And so not everyone has the tolerance for not seeing that reward so quickly. And so they can really lose their momentum because they're not seeing their rewards or the fruits of their labor quick enough.

Neil Barrow: Yeah. And I think that's important for the business development professional to know, but I think it's also important for firm leadership to know. And because I see a lot of times where firms will hire a business development person and say, OK, just get going, get out there, kind of do your thing. And then nine months later, it's like, where's our deals?

It's like, well, hold on, right. I'm just kind of getting ramped up here. I didn't have anything to start with. I'm having to build it.

And you're saying where's my deals? And so I think there's this going back to expectation setting on what is an actual sales cycle look like for our firm. And so you were in sales management for a long time. I appreciate you sharing those Nuggets around what you've seen be successful for hiring and coaching sales folks.

But then you went into professional services. And so tell me a little bit about your, you're kind of switch into more the professional service cell and what does that look like and how have you changed maybe your approach to that?

Kelly Krone: So switching over to professional services, this is a completely different, I don't not completely different because you have the skill set. I just transferred the skill set, but it's it's highly matrixed. And so quickly you learn that where when you're the salesperson at an organization that has a sales team or a business development team, they're the drivers of everything. When you come over to professional services, it's really a partnership between you and your business partners in the firm.

And so the thing that I learned really quick was first of all, you need to understand who you're working with because this is not just about you going into the market anymore. That's the easy part. And that's still something being in the organization that I'm in now, it's very large. And so I'm having to learn still navigate that differently.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, I think there's a, you know, in professional services, we've got to get to know the partners and we've got to get to know the vibes and we've got to, there's a like a relationship internal relationship element as well as an external network and relationship element that we have to cultivate. So what did you find? Maybe what worked and what didn't when you were first kind of getting started?

Kelly Krone: At first, you know, being a salesperson with the sales mentality, business development, you know, you want to just go out there and bring in as many deals as you can. And then you find, you quickly find out that different things internally are important to different people. And so if you can align yourself with what's you'll, you can and you'll find them what's important to you and align yourself with the people that have the same alignment. So you'll find people that really want to go in the market and then you'll find people that really don't want to go in the market and you find out where the skill sets fit.

And you also learn to who not to put in front of a first meeting or a second and really not as a dig on them, but you don't want to put. Sometimes you don't want to put someone outside of a technical conversation because they're not comfortable there. And so you learn that once the meeting gets to this point that now it's time to let them shine with their technical ability. And you know that's you know they're going to kill it once they get in there.

But.

Neil Barrow: Those initial meetings are really like what we talked about earlier. It's building confidence, like we've got to build confidence in the perspective clients that the services that we can offer can solve their problem or whatever it is. And so having the right people in that room that can show excitement and confidence in our work together. I think that's super important.

And I know that you work in really technical kind of newish right financial services. So I'm sure you're seeing that as well.

Mali Krone: Definitely. I think becoming an expert on who to bring in certain moments, like you were saying, is very important and honestly not something that I feel like people really talk about or something that you can learn. Like no one's going to, you know, tell you, oh, bring in this person this. I mean, you know, sometimes there's suggestions, right?

But you know, you're the only one in that meeting. So when I, when I was talking about qualifying, I think that's kind of what I was sort of getting at was, you know, it's important to, I mean, get to the next meeting, yes, but also how to put your best foot forward of who's going to get us to the next meeting, You know, because if the person I'm talking to is perhaps not super technical, I don't bring in a super technical person, then he wants to bring in his technical person. Great. Yeah, that was the right step.

Or if he can, you know, it's just, it is.

Neil Barrow: Yeah. It's being the quarterback of the opportunity and like coordinating that to give ourselves the best chance to help this perspective client because and I think that's really important is for us to know who our folks are and what their roles can be within the deal cycle of a perspective client opportunity. And so you're going into the business development on in professional services. So you've used sales and BD as kind of interchangeable.

What's the different, what is the difference for you? What I mean, what's the difference between sales and business development?

Kelly Krone: That's a good question. I think again, I'll go back to influence. I think you can look at sales. I think there's elements of sales in business development, quite a bit of it actually, probably about 85 to 90%.

But I think business development you're really because you're, there's more people involved than just you going out, you know, as sales people call it eating what you kill, OK. And so I think business development is more about influence of many constituents, not just yourself. And so I think that's probably what OR is to me, the major differing factor, yeah, is that it's not a role where it's just US solo.

Neil Barrow: Yeah. I think that's a really good point is most of when we think sales, it's you've got a quota and a territory and product and you're just going full cycle, right. I think business development is more where I'm the quarterback and I've got to think about relationships and I've got to think about how to put this together to serve the firm because it's services by people, it's not necessarily a product. And so it is more of a team based sell.

And so it is, I think, but there's also components of marketing elements to business development to develop your network and develop the market, you know, right, the market that you're in. And so I think that it kind of toes that line around how do we generate relationship or how do we generate the right relationships to generate valuable conversations for the firm. Right.

Kelly Krone: And I think probably coming from sales to business development and granted business development has sales in it. I think that was probably the major learning curve for me is because I knew I could get out and get it on my own. And you've been told your entire career to go get it on your own and then you don't like it. It's another muscle to have to learn to use because you're like, wait a second.

This isn't just about me going to get it on my own. And so it changes slightly and I think at a again, and I go back to influence because really, as you, the organization that I'm in today, it's not just about going to get it on your own. And it really is about my, you know, and I joke, he jokes about this too. But my boss currently, he was like, remember when you started and you said, I told you it's going to take at least, you know, to plus yours to get acclimated.

And you said, you know, I've done this before. And I was like, yeah, I do. And he's like, remember 6 months in, you were like, yeah, I think you're right at my take.

Neil Barrow: That is a true story.

Kelly Krone: You have to understand who you're bringing in, the personalities, how you're going to work with them.

Neil Barrow: I think that's a really key point is going back to what business development actually is in professional services and it's being a valuable member of the team. Then you have a certain skill set that you add to the team dynamic, right? And so I mean, that's, that's really cool. So you're, you're at professional service firm right now and business development role whenever Mali, whenever you're looking back on growing up with a mom in sales and business development, when did you become aware that she was like a BD or salesperson?

And then what did you think that she did?

Mali Krone: Yeah. What did you see her doing? I think growing up I just thought she was on the phone all the time. I had no idea, you know, what it was or why she was on the phone.

I just knew it was work and I knew it was important because, you know, I'd go in there and I'd peek in and I'd be like.

Neil Barrow: Can I go on a play date?

Mali Krone: Like I'm like mouthing and she'd be like.

Kelly Krone: Yeah. And so I always thought, I never want to do that because she's on the phone all the time, you know, and I then I, you know, I graduated and I would slip notes under the door. Yes or no Can I, you know? Right.

And, you know, I realized eventually that was just hurting my own chances bothering her while she was on the phone. But it was probably around high school when I really started to understand that it was sales, given it was still, you know, financial services kind of so a bit different. But I think pieces started to fall together in college when I started working and actually understanding the intricacies of what an organization does and what people do. And honestly, she'd always told me I would be good at sales, but I was, you know, kind of more stubborn first child.

Like, we'll see. I'll forge my own path. You don't know anything, Yeah. Absolutely, yes.

You know, like it's our parents, right? Right. And I was like, yeah, OK, maybe eventually. But you know, I studied finance, accounting.

So I also think something you know, we can touch on later or. But what we were talking about earlier, the future of business development, like people don't really teach you how to do this. And especially in school, I didn't even know it was a career path until I just had my mom who had done it. But I mean, in terms of studying and a career fair and putting pieces together and building a resume for a job like this when you've had no experience, it's kind of uncharted waters.

And so I think in terms of when I figured out what she was doing and then it was a skill set that I could grow and potentially be really good at and see, you know, positive feedback loop because I think that's how I'm wired. It was when I started having networking conversations for my own career and I was talking to some of my friends and, you know, I think they're super social and all of these things, but they could not have interviews. And not even like just my friends, but just people I had talked to. You know, talking to people is not everybody's strong suit.

And, you know, I think that was something that I really didn't see until I got into corporate world. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's true. People really actually don't want to talk to people. Whereas I'm like sitting at the desk and I'm like, if I don't talk enough, I can't sleep tonight.

Like I have to. Keep talking.

Neil Barrow: Well, I think, I think you kind of hit on a point which is like we think that business development is a personality trait, like they're extroverted or they're super social, but it's really a skill set to develop. And kind of what we hit on earlier is this personality thing, as I think some people are wired more naturally to go and do the activities associated with successful business development, But that doesn't mean that everybody can't develop the skill set to do it in their own way. And so as you're as you're thinking about then getting started, what was, I know we talked a little bit about advice, but what did you mainly take away from like being around your mom and seeing her do sales and then like as you're getting started, like what did you, what was like maybe a main take away from you as you were getting started?

Mali Krone: I think there are two that I think of off top of mind. The first one being, you know, she would just keep telling me, be yourself, be genuine. People can tell when you're reading a script or you're saying things that don't feel natural to you. Like just be you and if you say the wrong thing, you learn from it.

I think the second thing is listen to your own intuition. Like when she was talking about how I showed her this email, you know, I'm like, I don't think this is going to resonate with somebody, but I'm not an investment professional. I've never sold this. I'm two months in, I have no idea.

But like, I know how I operate and I look at, you know, third paragraph on LinkedIn and I'm zoned out. I'm having to reread. And so, you know, I said that and she's like, yeah, no one's going to read that. But of course I'm questioning my own judgement because I didn't have the experience.

And so that's just a small example, but I really do think your own intuition can really take you far. Like I said, no one can exactly teach you everything about how to go and do outreach or what message is going to stick. And so I think, you know, you look at someone and you're sort of qualifying them for a reach out. And, you know, you can be unsure, but I think like it goes back to your own intuition of is this the right person to reach out to?

Is this the right way to spend my time? Is this the right thing to say? Like in just trial and error.

Neil Barrow: Trial and error, yeah, we've got to figure it out when we're getting started, right? But I think when you think about focusing your time, it becomes great. I say this a lot, which is I need you to go out and get reps start exercising the muscle before I train you because you won't have any context around. If I tell you, here's your here's your email, here's what it should look like.

It's not going to sound like you and you don't have that muscle kind of developed or on the phone. I you got to get experience before you have context to then get.

Mali Krone: And I think that's why it was helpful for her to say be yourself. Because I knew what it felt like when I wasn't. And I was like, I don't even believe me. I doubt they do.

And then yeah, intuition too. I think that's what you said, Neil, is that it also helps you overcome your own fear and hesitation. And I think that, you know, whenever you build something up so huge in your mind and.

Kelly Krone: Yeah, like anything in life. Yes, but you're afraid and you do it anyway

Neil Barrow: and. And that's what that. Yeah, just doing it. And I think that, you know, again, as you progress through, you realize that, you know, a lot of it is execution all the way around, just pushing yourself to.

I don't want to do this, but I'm going to do it. You know I don't. You know I.

Kelly Krone: Was on the phone with her when I first sent my first outreach message and like, I don't know, it's like just. Send it. Just send it. Yeah.

I think we try to sometimes because we feel insecure, we try to overcomplicate or try to sound different than we are. And really, you know, for what she does, I told her it was like there's curiosity already out there. So as soon as they see what you do and you know that you're just looking to, you're new to this and you're looking to build a network. I think that's what you said, didn't you?

Mali Krone: I did, and actually in my first meeting ever, he said. I never answer anyone on LinkedIn, I never take meetings. But you told me exactly why you wanted a meeting and I thought you were being genuine, so I took.

Neil Barrow: It that was it. Yeah. And so you got your first meeting from LinkedIn. Yeah.

That's cool. So I love that. So when we think about how we get meetings today, yes, let's talk about how you're generating opportunities for your firm and what's working for you now. And then where are we headed?

Like where do we see our time being spent moving forward, right. I think, I think those two things are interrelated, which is like, how are we generating opportunities now? Where do we see our focus maybe changing or evolving into, but let's start with Kelly and how are you getting meetings and opportunities

Kelly Krone: today? Today I'm, well, my role is pure Greenfield.

Neil Barrow: So pure Greenfield means you're calling out. So you're calling. I mean, you're not. It's no internal.

You're not. These are prospective clients. These are not current.

Kelly Krone: Clients, yes. And so again, I've been able to take advantage of relationships that I've built in the past, connecting those and I just, you know, I'll say that as a point, that what you build, built yesterday, the day before, the day before, the day before, you know, as you move to new roles and new, everything that you've done before is usable in those relationships there. I mean, I can't even tell you how many I still have around, you know, just all of that work that I did previously. But so I'm actively cold calling, reaching out, doing those activities that I've always done.

There's more complexity because the firm that I work for is more complex, so.

Neil Barrow: You find it hard to like know where to spend your time and focus on like service lines or different things. Are you pretty locked in as far as the people? Because we know that that internal component, which is like very important. And so have you found your partners and the people that you're going to bring in and really work closely with?

Kelly Krone: Yes. And I think that's important too, to talk about because I think, you know, and I tell my perspective clients this to a business development person has done a lot of internal mining networking for the people around you. And they've also done, or the people that they work with internally. But we've also done when you're prospecting, understanding those, you know, personality fits and you're not going to bring in someone that you don't trust for a prospect that you've called on for 18 months because you don't want to lose it.

And so you're going to bring the A-Team, you know, and you're going to bring the people that deliver, and they're going to align with you know?

Neil Barrow: You're probably, if you're Greenfield, then you're, you've got your small list of probably target prospective clients that you're calling on, but you're also leveraging your network that you've built and asking them for help and keeping those relationships in mind, right. So you're probably spending both of your time. It's a 2 prong approach so I do external reach. I use my network internally, meaning my partners and managing directors and even senior managers, and down lower we collaborate to get indoors.

And you're trying to connect the dots on the back end who might know who's.

Kelly Krone: Warm. How many emails I send. Hey, Denny, you guys know? I see you're connected to, you know.

Neil Barrow: So you're detective on the back end, Yes, Yeah, because we're all, we're all 1° removed from.

Kelly Krone: Someone. Someone so it's trying to connect those.

Neil Barrow: Dots. And so you do that internally, but you also do that externally. So you're doing both and you're also doing a direct approach because hearing for me and I think too like when you're working in professional services, sometimes people can get reluctant about you reaching out as a business development person and educating them on, hey, they expect me to reach out. You know, maybe in your role, yes, you're supposed to do some of that, but they expect me to and also somebody else is doing that somewhere else.

And so having me reach out and you know, them going, hey, I work with so and so is awesome.

Kelly Krone: Because reinforcing it, yes, Yeah. Because you want them to go, oh, I work with someone and so and you say, great. And you can, you know, say, hey, let me loop in, you know.

Neil Barrow: Sure, absolutely. No, I love that. So you're you're providing like your external network, it's your internal network and then it's outbound for you direct. And so that's where really where you're shaking out and spending your time.

What about you, Mali? Where are you finding new opportunities to generate new conversations? What's working for you? You said LinkedIn which?

Mali Krone: LinkedIn is great, so, but I think that there's even a step further back from that. And you sort of touched on this with, you know, being a detective, but I think filtering and research goes a long way. And honestly, I don't think that many people take enough time to really do it. For my job specifically, I think we've talked about this many times, but qualifying and like doing just doing things where the shoe even 50% will fit.

Neil Barrow: So what you're talking about when you say qualifying, what you're referring to is researching companies and people to determine if they're even worse. Yes, actually doing outreach or being a detective.

Mali Krone: On and I think some of that comes from, you know the fact that my firm is a bit smaller and I have capacity to be a bit more scrappy with things. But it really does matter, especially in you know someone gives you a contact list and there's people in real estate on there and we don't do anything to do have anything to do with that. And so then, you know, you're wasting their time. I've wasted my time.

It's sort of I think, I think that's you hit on the point which is like what we think business development or sales is generating a list of 1000 companies, putting them into a sequence and then blasting them and hoping we get.

Neil Barrow: Really. More like responsibility. But if we targeted, if we could focus it based on our ideal client profile, based on who we help the most, based on our best services, then we're more likely to go get a meeting with someone that's high impact. Then we can take that those 50 and go to our external network or internal partners and we can be the detective that we need to be to try to get connected and find the easiest route to a conversation.

Kelly Krone: And I will say something about that too. I think to educating internally on, you know, a lot of firms have gone to industries and so they're, you know, instead of, you know, like specific, you know, area of the firm, they're going to industry, you know, from a national perspective. And I think that educating them on, hey, around this particular industry, there's a bunch of influencers and they're going after the same people too. They're trying to have those same conversations and understanding that to create eminence in that you really need to understand the whole picture.

Neil Barrow: You got to see the entire orbit of this industry and who the referral sources are influencers like you're saying, right? And so you're kind of trying to get focused and qualify some of these folks. And so then what are you doing with that once you qualify them? Really, it's direct outreach.

Are you finding success in direct outreach? Yes. OK. And where?

Where are you finding it? How are you?

Mali Krone: Honestly, I heavily rely on LinkedIn. I think that seeing a person's face.

Neil Barrow: LinkedIn. Yes, emails are great on the back end. Hey, I just, you know, sent you a connection request. Figured I'd ping you here.

I did this in case that's better type of thing.

Mali Krone: But I really do think seeing a person's face and honestly, then they get to qualify you as well. And I appreciate that. If they say no, that's great. I've gotten to the point where I cannot take it personally for some time.

But it's really, you know, the biggest enemy to a salesperson is time. So you saying no moves me closer to the right person and I appreciate.

Neil Barrow: That you appreciate that.

Mali Krone: I really appreciate the no and it's really respectful most of the time too. And if people are rude, I'm like, great to know that now. But I do think LinkedIn has been very successful. I think other than that, something going forward that I've already been, you know, talking about is I do think cold calling is not dying.

I think it's rare. And so just like many people don't follow up, a lot of people don't cold call. And I think doing two of those things could become a secret weapon. Who knows?

But I go ahead, no? No go, please. Oh, I. Was just going to say I think moving forward I would like to automate everything.

Neil Barrow: Well, I think OK, so let's let's talk about a couple of things. So what is your play on LinkedIn like? How many DMs do you send? Do you do you DM?

Do you connect requests?

Mali Krone: I do both at the same time, so.

Neil Barrow: You connect, add a note. That's what I do. Connect. Add a note.

Oh yeah, what's your note say? Well you only have 300 characters so better be the best.

Kelly Krone: I don't write a note, so I'm interested. You don't. You don't write a note. I don't write a note.

I don't typically write notes.

Mali Krone: Either I do write a note, you know, my notes usually like hey, so and so great to meet you. It can say a couple different things depending on what they are for. But if I'm you know. Personality.

And if I'm trying to, you know, get a meeting, I will say, you know, I'm looking to build relationships in Fort Worth or Dallas or wherever it is. Would you be open to grabbing a cup of coffee and then, you know, straight to it? And then if a lot of the time I find some fellow alumni in the DFW network, at least I'll add in a little Go Frogs Shameless plug, you know, but I really do think it's if you, if I see something on their profile, like we talked about where it's an easy connection point, you know, I'll, I'll write my message and at the end be like, PS how do you know so and so we blah, blah. If it's natural and

Neil Barrow: so. So I love that and I love that you're having success on it. I think most people would initially disqualify LinkedIn DMs. Really as a trash fire because all of our DMs are a disaster, right, with people trying to sell us appointment setting software and hey, are you open to a franchise opportunity, right.

So we get all of those things. That's true. So people would be very quick to dismiss not using LinkedIn DMs yeah. As a source of new opportunity to.

Make success.

Mali Krone: It also depends on your method of outreach, if it's sales navigator or just manual. Mine is very manual. You can automate things like that. But I honestly when I when I said automate, I was talking about all the back office heavy lifting, all of the research and the outreach.

I would love to spend more time on that because that's where you start to generate some success. But without that having time to do that research in those slow sort of, you know, OK, this person and this person, I'm going to reach out.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, No, I and again, I thanks for touching on the LinkedIn and sharing that. I think that's a really key piece, right, because it's successful if you're posting content or if you're connecting with folks and reaching out and asking for me, it works, right. I like your combo of cold calling plus LinkedIn. I think that could be a really cool thing as email is getting more crowded.

I do think yeah, email and I think timing of emails is really important too. Sure, I do too. You know, most people think, oh, send it while they're at their desk and I think that is industry standard. But I.

Mali Krone: Honestly, so what's work for y'all? After hours late.

Neil Barrow: Night. Yeah, late night.

Mali Krone: I mean one what recently? Two AM I set a meeting. Of course I'm not. I did.

Outreach on LinkedIn, you know, around 4:00 during the day. Yeah. Connection. Hey, I usually don't check this.

Here's my email. Send me a note. Send a note, not going to work out for the meeting looped in two more people. Meeting was set by 2:30 in the morning.

And like I'm sitting there, you know, people are like, don't email, it's not appropriate, whatever. But I was like, people respect hustle.

Neil Barrow: Yeah, they respect hustle, but it's also like we think a work life balance, but it's like work life integrate. Like we're all, we're always thinking about work and doing our personal thing and professional thing. And so it's all integrated anyway. And so no, I love that after hours little tidbit.

I agree that does that does. They were on California time, weren't there? New York New. York.

So they're actually 3:30 we're going. OK, love it. OK. So final thoughts around like thinking about business development, like over your course of your career and thinking about the folks that are a little bit more experienced or in a manager role or people that are hiring BD, all the things that we had talked about.

But leave us with a final thought and Mali is thinking about yours is what has been the biggest thing that you've done or thought about or learned right over your last 18 months that you want to share with people that are maybe just getting started with business development?

Kelly Krone: I would say the biggest thing in my career has been overcoming my own fear, whether that's cold calling, emailing, talking to someone that you're, you know, really intimidated by. I think that is pivotal. I think that it creates momentum for pretty much everything else.

Neil Barrow: So it reminds me of the quote that I've I've used a couple times, which is the, The Cave you fear to enter holds the treasure that you seek, right? And so like all of these things that we push off because they're a little bit uncomfortable or we don't know exactly how to do it right, What that looks like, that's ultimately where we need to go and kind of lean into. That's actually not saying you shouldn't do it. It's actually saying, hey, if I'm feeling this way, this is probably actually what I should be doing.

That's right. And so if you're feeling afraid, that means you're doing the right thing. Yeah, I would agree with that. OK, awesome.

Thank you, Kelly and Mali.

Mali Krone: I think I will piggyback off of that. I think this is also something that my mom encouraged me to do, which I think, you know, sometimes parents don't always tell you to do, but it's to take the risk. I think coming right out of college, you know, in a more traditional degree, finance, accounting, you know, they really layout certain career paths for you. And you know, I thought to myself, why would I choose a career path where everyone kind of seems unhappy?

Not everyone, but I just mean, that was very bold. I know, I know, but I don't mean like as a dig. I just mean, you know, I'm like, I like talking to people, perhaps. Where you would be unhappy.

Exactly where I would be unhappy. Fair. And so I, you know, had a lot of conversations between staying somewhere a bit more traditional and coming here. And I think the biggest thing I would tell someone is to take the risk, especially while you're young.

I think that's something that honestly, after speaking with a lot of people, you know, trying to gauge where was best for me to go, at least ten of them said, I wish I would have done X or I wish I would have done this sooner. And so I think that where I was sitting, I was like, ah, crap, I don't want to do that. And so I think taking a risk on not only industry but just yourself, I think that also goes to your point of, you know, entering The Cave and finding the treasure. It's sort of you have to jump.

Got to jump.